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Poetry
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Quote Poetry Replybullet Topic: 1980s DLIFLC courses and copyright
    Posted: 12 March 2007 at 7:11pm
Hi All,
Well, I've opened that discussion with DLI about the old DLIFLC language courses. In another thread I was asking about this. Today, I had a long chat with one of the office personnel at DLI about the copyright issues. The way it seems to work is that I have to ask on a course-by-course basis. And we aren't sure who I'm supposed to ask so far. The courses are no longer being used, and aren't available any longer. They haven't been restocking them, so they are pretty much gone at this point.

So. If they are not used currently and if they were paid for with government money to develop, they most likely are in the public domain. BUT, I DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE YET. This is simply me talking to someone who keeps the records there. We're going to find it. It's just going to take a little time.

Now. The out-of-print courses have masters, but we're not sure where they are kept. Possibly after the courses were discontinued they were trashed. They are typewriter typed pages and probably reel-to-reel tape masters for the cassette tapes. So, if we want to rescue these from oblivion, now is probably the time. I am not specifically pressing about the location of the masters because I don't want to muddy the waters looking for the copyright info. Once we find out if they are in the public domain, then I can begin asking about the masters.

G.D. Fellows has done this amazing job getting the copyright verified and starting the digitizing of the FSI courses. It would be such a fantastic thing if we could release the DLI courses also. I'll try my best to shake this loose. If worse comes to worse, I think that my congress critter might be a helpful ally.

--Poetry


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flutable
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Quote flutable Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2007 at 7:41pm
Poetry, thanks for your work on this. 
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Quote onebir Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 5:31am
Yes - even if the masters are lost, if the courses are in the public domain, or you can get permission for them to be put online, it would be a great contribution.  They come up for sale now and then, and I think there are  a fair few distributed across the forum members already.

If you're feeling enthusiastic, I think there's a lot of Peace Corps material in a similar limbo.  Some of the texts are available online via ERIC - but only a tiny fraction of what was produced, and the accompanying audio is very hard to track down.  I did contact the Peace Corps about this some time ago - via the link on their home page - but their response was  non-committal...
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Quote gdfellows Replybullet Posted: 14 March 2007 at 9:20am
Originally posted by flutable

Poetry, thanks for your work on this. 
 
Yes, I also appreciate your efforts!  I am more than willing to post these courses here if we can clearly resolve the copyright issues.
 
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Quote Poetry Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2007 at 5:09pm
Hi GD,
So today I had another frustrating talk with a person who was clearly not interested in letting me know which language courses from the 1980s are left in stock (everything I checked was gone, everything in that list below).  This is the person who heads up the stock room there.  I asked him who I needed to contact to clear the copyright, and he didn't know. 
 
He did say that the only things they are cleared to sell out to the public are things that are free of copyright protection.  That gives me a lot of hope that when I do get someone's attention then I'll get the permission I'm seeking since I purchased my tapes through this office.
 
He mentioned something else that was interesting.  The back offices are digitizing the Head Start courses of the older languages.  Probably for inclusion in NTIS.  There is no effort at all being made for the Basic Courses though since "those are not meant to be stand-alone courses but done with an instructor so there is no reason to do them."  Yes.  But they are drill-and-kill repetition.  So they CAN be done stand-alone.  Several people have done it.  Having a conversation partner is important, but those courses can teach a full language. 
 
Checking the web site, the office in charge of clearing copyright issues is the Directorate of Information Management.  The products guy said that, "no, those are just the guys that do our phones and copiers when they don't work.  I don't think that's the right office."
 
So, my e-mail went no where.  I am now posting a registered letter to the Directorate of Information Management, care of US Army Garrison since I can't find an address either. 
 
It's after 6:00 pm EDT, so I'll mail this tomorrow.  Here's my letter:
 

Directorate of Information Management

Defense Language Institute

Foreign Language Center

Presidio of Monterey, CA 

 

Dear Sir/Madam:

 

I am writing you today to ask for a formal clarification of the copyright status of several Department of Defense language courses created at the Defense Language Institute (DLI) from 1970 to 1990 that were offered as classes during those decades to U.S. military and State Department students.  Works created by the U.S. Government are not eligible for copyright protection; therefore, many of these courses should be in the public domain once they are no longer in active use.    

 

A graduate of DLI (class and graduation year deleted), I have been asked for copies of my own course by local U.S. Army National Guard troops and other individuals.  So many of these course requests have been received that an informal network has been started to support individualized training.  As the older courses are no longer offered at DLI, there is significant interest in releasing these courses to the public to stimulate language training efforts among US citizens.  Given the current need for persons with any background in several critical languages, the release of these courses will only be of benefit. 

 

Specifically, I am asking for the status of the following courses taught in the 1980s at DLI, though clarification for other courses may be sought in the future:

  • Modern Standard Arabic, Basic Course
  • Egyptian Dialect Course
  • Iraqi Dialect Course
  • Syrian Dialect Course
  • Spanish, Basic Course
  • Mandarin Chinese, Basic Course
  • Serbo-Croatian, Basic Course
  • Russian, Basic Course
  • Polish, Basic Course
  • Czech, Basic Course
  • Korean, Basic Course
  • Persian-Farsi, Basic Course
  • Vietnamese, Basic Course

Thank you for your help in this matter,

 
 


Edited by Poetry - 02 May 2007 at 12:19am
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Poetry
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Quote Poetry Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2007 at 5:14pm
By the way, the informal network mentioned is not this web site.  We have a group of Nat'l Guard guys who couldn't get the Army to send them language materials, so they asked me.  I'm taping and scanning now as fast as I can since there are like 20 guys that are begging for this.  They're over in Iraq now, and I don't know what the deal is with the Army and their blocking of what seem to me very reasonable requests. 
 
Probably because the modern language training at DLI requires an instructor so the Army feels it is useless to send any materials other than that Head Start sort of intro course that is basic phrases.  From the AF guys I know, they are begging for the dialect courses because dialects are not taught in DLI any longer.  Instead, you get a smattering of everything to round you out, but it isn't as useful to them. 
 
--Poetry
 
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Quote Poetry Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2007 at 5:15pm
Hi All,
I'm back from vacation (Disneyworld in FL), and I think we may have finally bought a house tonight! (Yay! Been working on that for weeks now.)

I did not hear back from the letter that I sent to DLI, even though I got the certified letter return receipt back. So. The next step is my congress critter. Who just happens to be on the Senate Intelligence Committee --you know, the ones that are so concerned that we don't have enough linguists or language capability in the US.   I'll start that process with their office in just a few days, once the blitz of appraisals, home inspections, etc, is over with.

I can't imagine that they'll turn this down since it doesn't require any US funds or grants. All we need is a clarification that DLI either is unwilling or completely lost as to who should give.

--Poetry
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Quote daristani Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2007 at 9:24am
Poetry-

Many thanks from all of us for keeping on this; with luck, your efforts could dislodge a virtual mountain of useful materials.  And even if they don't result in all that many of the actual courses themselves, a decision "in principle", or one that just reconfirms the language in some of the DLI materials that they can be used freely in a non-profit setting, could make it possible for people to post materials they pick up from e-bay and elsewhere, as onebir mentions above.  (I know that my local university library, for instance, has the texts for the Turkish course.)

And congratulations on the house!  I hope you and your family live in it long and happily!
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Poetry
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Quote Poetry Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2007 at 12:08pm
Hi All,
So after I posted the message that I hadn't heard a response from DLI, I got one!! Not the response I was hoping for, but at least I'm in a dialogue now.

They sent it certified mail, return receipt requested (like I sent the message in to them) on June 22, 2007. The letter itself was dated June 11, 2007.

Here's the response (with a few things blotted out for privacy's sake):

-----------------------------------

Directorate of Information Management

My Name
My Address

Dear Ms. ,

This is in response to your letter dated April 23, 2007 requesting the copyright status of several Department of Defense language courses taught in the 1980s at DLI.

While it is true that Government created works may not be copyrighted, the materials developed for these courses contain varying percentages of authentic content that are in fact copyright protected and are the intellectual property of various news sources and authors who have given the Defense Language Institute limited non-profit educational use of these materials. It is possible the course material may be obtained through the Defense Technical Information Center or the Defense Visual Information Center.

Please direct questions to the undersigned at ....

Sincerely,

Name, Administrative Officer

--------------

I've withheld some of the contact information because I'm pursuing these contacts, and I'd rather they were not overwhelmed with response right now. The Defense Technical Information Center is a snipe hunt (useless search for our non-US folks that are wondering what a snipe hunt is --a hunt for a mythical creature). I've already pursued that a bit. And the Defense Visual Information Center is the place to rent out stock footage for film makers and such. It's of no use here.

Basically, they deflected the question. Hmm. Why? Too much effort and they don't want to be liable for a copyright breach in case of a mistake? It looks like a typical CYA (Cover Your Anatomy) maneuver. They just sent me out any old answer hoping I'll shut up and go away.

But they are the record holder. Not the other places mentioned. So I need to go back to that Administrative Officer. But it's 4th of July week here, and that leads to elusive personnel that are out with their families having a good time.

I haven't yet pulled in Barbara Mikulski's office yet. That's my last card to play --it's not a very friendly one if I want to remain on good terms with them. And I'd rather do that. Instead, I'm going to pursue the Administrative Officer and see if I can get his superior's name. Then see if I can broker some sort of release to one of our University's entities for public use. They might be more open to that. (Something like University of Indiana's web site, only open to the public) Our University is looking to make a name in Language Translation, so they might be very receptive.

This is early days yet. I'm not done with this problem by a long shot. Don't think the game is over yet.

--Poetry


Edited by Poetry - 05 July 2007 at 12:10pm
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Quote Poetry Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2007 at 2:01pm
Hi All,
Wow.  Since yesterday a lot happened. 
 
I had a very long phone conversation yesterday with a very clueful person from the Defense Technical Information Service.  There's a lot of information to pass on, and I've let a day go by before writing this down because my schedule got so crazy.
 
GD, I'll pass her name and contact info on to you in private.
 
Basically, I've been getting an answering machine for the contact at DLI.  We haven't been able to connect yet.  It's been frustrating me.
 
But, the DTIS contact was very interesting.
 
I gave her the outline of the issue:  we are graduates of the courses, we see their value to the general public, the courses were paid for by the US Government and should be in the public domain, and we would like to put them up online for public use. 
 
She's seen this issue before with something less cut-and-dried than our problem.  Our problem is that we can't get a definitive answer out of what should be the authority (DLI) on the copyright status of these materials.  The answer was disturbing:  they probably don't know.  The government simply doesn't keep good records on what they purchase for their own consumption.  The data on the copyright may be buried in purchase requests and contract payments that they simply don't keep around. 
 
There IS NO central clearing house for government copyright information.  In fact, the very casual manner that it is treated is a matter of some concern for persons in her area.  They're talking to the government lawyers now trying to get some more cohesive and comprehensive retention of copyright info. 
 
There is also a very infancy stage idea to create a branch like DTIS and DVIS for Training Materials.  The older courses for every type of training tend to get forgotten and drop into oblivion after time. 
 
There have been very very recent cases where the government wanted to reprint a training course that they'd paid for, had gone out of use, and thought that they could just reprint again.  Everything was set up, then they realized that they didn't have the information on the contract and copyright rights transferral with the original copyright owner.  It had been lost.  They went back to the copyright owner, and the owner refused to allow the reprint without another contract and payment.  That's sort of given a wake-up call to the government to start keeping better records on this sort of thing.  (They never pay attention until it costs them money.)
 
Most of the new language courses being taught at DLI now bear no resemblance to the courses taught in the 1980s or before.  There are practically no books.  Grammar points are not discussed until you have done the lesson in class and learned the point through conversation and usage.  The classes are based off of commercial products and are very teacher dependent.  The things that are slipping out from those courses are almost all contract usage.
 
We can't figure out where the master tapes and books are for the courses or who would have archival copies of the classes.  They have to be somewhere, but the DTIS person couldn't get a fix on them.  Actually, her computer wasn't making the connection to another government computer directly.  A situation that made us both smile wryly. 
 
The other situation that is close to ours is that an individual stationed in the Pacific theater in the 1940s had a complete set of Stars and Stripes newspapers for about 10 years or so.  He wanted to scan them in and make them available online.  Can you imagine???!!!!  Those would have had news items from world and US news, bits and pieces of Service news, and probably a picture or two of interesting things.  And the answer?  He can't.  Because they don't know who holds the copyrights on any of the articles and the Sonny Bono law makes it very risky now to infringe.  So, those Stars and Stripes will be lost and thrown away most likely. 
 
There is a law on the horizon that may help (and may hurt in some cases).  The orphan works law.  Basically, there is a large body of work that is now copyrighted that would not have been copyrighted before.  Things set in a tangible medium (like letters to friends) now have implicit copyright.  But, often there is no way of knowing who the copyright holder actually is.  So, these works can't be published because the copyright owner can't be found.  The orphan works law would allow (in certain situations not explicitly mentioned in the abstract that I read) for the release of copyright damages for works where the individual publishing the work has tried to get in touch with the copyright owner.  That doesn't mean the owner loses the copyright, but it does mean that if an infringer does so after trying to get in touch with the owner and not being able to, then the infringer won't be liable for damages if the owner later surfaces and complains.  (It happens a LOT in the software world when a company goes bankrupt.  We call it abandonware.)
 
The downside to the orphan works law is that Fair Use is suddenly going to start being defined.  And it never has been before.  That's going to create problems.  Some situations will be great.  Others won't be.  (Libraries actually exist because of Fair Use, by the way.)
 
What it finally came down to is that the message in the fly leaf of the DLI materials does indicate that we can use the works for non-profit use.  But it also mentions reproduction (though in the same breath as "for profit").  We may never get a full answer from DLI about these courses.  There are several points to consider here:
 
1. The date of the work. 
2. Was it created by government employees?
3. Was it created by contract for the government?
4. Did it ever have a copyright notice?
5. Does it have a rights assignment in the fly leaf?
 
Remember, facts are not copyrightable.  However, the order the facts are presented in, the fonts used, the flow and organization of the work IS copyrightable. 
 
The flowchart for deciding whether it is in the public domain or not has gotten complicated.  This one is the best that I've seen so far, but it omits the Government works.
 
One thing that is missing from this FSI Languages site is a notice that this is for non-profit uses.  The DTIS sees Ebay scalpers raiding her site too.  They grab the citations the minute they are posted, then offer them for sale.  They also pay to have their commercial listing actually pop up first in Google and other search engines listings.  (Scum of the Earth.) 
 
There is a flowchart on these things that I was pointed to to try to help figure out if the work is copyrightable.  It looks like many of the older courses may be in the public domain, but there is a bit of uncertainty. 
 
I'd say, to be absolutely safe, anything that has a newspaper-like article in it shouldn't be posted up.  Most all of DLI's newspaper articles were gotten from copyrighted sources by permission.  That's not going to be perfect protection, but at least some of the glaring copyright issues are satisfied by that.  I can live with that. 
 
There are other issues, especially on some of the East Asian languages like Mandarin Chinese.  The DLI course used pieces of the Yale University course.  Mostly dialogues.  That needs a determination that I don't know if we can get.
 
But, the good news, is that the fly leaf on the 1975/revised 1981 edition of the DLI Modern Standard Arabic course does have the non-profit use statement.  AND it further states on page ii that the course was developed and produced at DLI.  That's a pretty good smoking gun that it IS in the public domain because it was created by Government employees.  Not a 100% answer, but enough that I feel comfortable myself putting these up.  Especially for a non-profit use.  Further support is that it has no copyright notice, nor any listed authors, and was created prior to 1989 (the first and most substantial version was prior to 1978). 
 
This sounds like it is always going to have a question.  But it also sounds like if the DLI courses are in question, so are the FSI ones.  The older ones are probably safer.  And if they have a non-profit uses rights statement, then all the better. 
 
I've been recording and scanning the MSA course in preparation to the copyright question being sorted out.  I'm up to Lesson 20 in audio and the first Volume of the texts.  They do omit the Sound & Script portion, so I may have to see if I can create one from materials and resources at hand.  There is the FSI Arabic script book.  It would be best to have some audio to go with that and some workbooks.  I'll see if my friend Ali would record it with me.  I can create the workbooks myself. 
 
--Poetry
 
 
 
 


Edited by Poetry - 07 July 2007 at 2:02pm
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