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Changes since 1961

Printed From: FSI Language Courses
Category: Learning Languages
Forum Name: German
Forum Discription: Discussion about studying German using the FSI course.
URL: http://fsi-language-courses.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=265
Printed Date: 16 January 2009 at 2:44am


Topic: Changes since 1961
Posted By: davideagen
Subject: Changes since 1961
Date Posted: 07 January 2007 at 11:23pm
Te FSI German course was written in 1961. Have there been any significant changes in the language since then that I should be aware of? Other than any technology related terms of course.

-Dave



Replies:
Posted By: Exocrist
Date Posted: 08 January 2007 at 5:53am
There are some words that were more colloquial that have become more mainstream, and it'll be tough to figure out what they all are without experience.  I haven't actually gone through the FSI German to see what's in it, so I'm not sure how big of a difference it'll make.  After you get more comfortable with German, try reading some newspapers or  watching some German TV or listening to German Radio.  That should help you become a little more familiar with any modernizations.  Maybe watch some recent German movies (or German dubs of American movies, as they're much more common).  I'm not a native speaker, but maybe one would be able to identify some bigger changes since the 60s.  I hear people say how "the Genetiv case is dying", which I think is sort of true, since lots of people just use Dativ instead.

There IS also the Spelling Reform of 199 to consider, but even that isn't too big of a deal.  Lots of Germans use the old rules, and they're fairly similar.  Pretty much everyone can make sense of both conventions, because they're pretty close to the same.

Here are some links to get you started:
http://www.spiegel.de
http://wwitv.com/portal.htm
http://www.dw-world.de
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996


Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 2:59am
I'm an American living in Austria, and I figured I'd write up what I consider to be old fashioned chapter by chapter in the FSI course.

Chapter 1:


1. Verzeihung seems to be a bit strong, might just be an Austrian thing but I once got corrected for saying it.  I would use Entschuldigung or 'Tschuldigung instead.


2. Mark and Pfennig = Euro and cent.  Cent is supposed to be pronounced like English but out in the country you'll hear it pronounced with a ts sound.


3. Sauerkraut is Sauerkraut in Austria but sometimes in Germany you hear Sauerkohl.

4. Fräulein is NOT used anymore.  At best it's considered old fashioned, usually somewhat sexist, and often times is only used to refer to a prositute.

Saying Fräulein with a heavy american accent is used to make fun of Amis who only know German from watching war movies.

5. The word nicht is often not pronounced as nicht.  In Low German the word is nich without the t, so in Northern Germany the word nich has become slang, and since Northern German is considered to be sort of the best German nich is used all over especially by young people.  In some places you might hear it pronounced as nischt, and in Bavaria and Austria you'll hear net or nit but net is considered to be dialect while nich is considered to be slang. 

6.  Instead of nein you'll often hear nee in most of Germany and na in the south and in Austria.  Once again nee is considered slang and na dialect. 

Chapter 2:


1. gnädige Frau might have been considered polite 50 years ago in diplomatic circles but to me it sounds like calling someone m'Lady in english.

2. Es ist dort sehr nett.  This is more an Austrian thing but for me da means something nearby and dort is something very far away.  It's really a matter of feeling but even in Austria they are becoming more and more interchangeable everyday.

3. Strasse is now spelled Straße after the spelling reform.

4. Die Dame is still used a lot in Austria but it's possible it might be a little old fashioned in Germany.  Not sure about that.

5. heissen is now spelled heißen







Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 4:51am
Chapter 3:

1. Weiss is now spelled weiß

2. Die Taxe means the tax or tarriff.  It's listed as northern german regional slang in my dictionary but i've never heard it even in Berlin, and there the Taxis say Taxi on them.  Just say das Taxi, die Taxis.  Most Germans probably won't know die Taxe as a Taxi.

3.  Omnibus and Autobus sounds like saying "Are you taking the Omnibus or your motor car?"  in English.  Just say der Bus.

4. You can say Universität but in everyday speech most people just say Uni like British Uni but pronounced without the y at the beginning.  So ooh-knee not you-knee.  Of course with german vowels not the long drawn out English ones.

5.  gross is now spelled groß.  So, Daneben ist ein großer Parkplatz.

6.   For words like Zwanzig or any word ending in -ig, proper Hochdeutsch Bühneaussprache (Stage pronunciation) says they should be pronounced as ich.  Many people in the West, the East, and Berlin pronounce it as something sounding like -isch (Technically there is a different sound according to linguists but to German native speakers it's isch and that's what they say when making fun of the accent), and in the south, austria, and switzerland, you hear it pronounced as -ick.  Although, -ich is starting to spread into Austria, it my experience it's better to say -ich and then later you'll start to pick up the accent of the region.  For me I still pronounce unusual words as -ich but numbers as -ick without even thinking about it.

7. gibt in Hochdeutsch is pronounced as gibt, but in the really old spelling before the 20's it was spelled giebt and is often pronounced so especially in the East.



Posted By: Aaaa
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 5:07am
kflavin84 - this stuff is very interesting, are you going to do the whole lot, both volumes? I'll take note of it all.

By 'Chapter' do you mean 'Unit'?


Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 5:17am
Chapter 4:

1. Angehörige sounds funny to me the way he says it.  It sounds like he is saying Anjehörije which is Berlin dialect.  In Berlin, Cologne, and parts of former East Germany G's can become J, so you'll hear something like.

Ne jut jebratens Jans is ne jute Jabe Jottes.

Eine gut gebratens Gans ist eine gute Gabe Gottes.

2. Sonnabend is the traditional northern form of the word for Saturday.  Samstag is the standard form used everywhere else and used by most younger and educated speakers even in the north.  My first trip to Hamburg I used the word Sonnabend, and the person smiled and said I could just say Samstag.

3. Grüssen is now spelled grüßen.

4. empfehlen Sie mich is something I've never heard before, it means recommend me, and is probably just really old fashioned and formal.

5.  Frau Gemahlin is probably a little too formal to actually be used in most situations.

6. Dreissig is now spelled Dreißig.  Always use ß after ei, au, äu, and long vowels.

Chapter 5:

1.  I've never heard Etagenhaus.  I would say Mietshaus or Wohnhaus, maybe even Mehrfamilien(wohn)haus. 


Etage is used for floor or story in Germany, and Stock is more common in Austria although Stock is commonly used everywhere, while Etage is generally only used in Germany.  Geschoss is a third synonym but is uncommon except in the word Erdegeschoss the ground floor.  Stock is probably the most the common of the three.  Ebene is used for very large floors, like the 3rd floor of a shopping mall, a parking garage, or an airport terminal.

2.  Schreibmaschine is typewriter, you'll probably want to substitute der Computer.  Pronounced like English with a German accent so a little y sound before a German long u and a German -er at the end.




Posted By: Karat
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 3:40pm
Some comments from a native speaker perspective on your comments. I write only about the points I don't completely agree with or which could need some clarification.

Chapter 1.1 Verzeihung is indeed a bit strong and sounds formal. But it is completely appropriate to say it to somebody you would adress with "Sie".

1.3 Sauerkraut remains Sauerkraut. ;) I have never heard "Sauerkohl" to be honest but I am from Northern Germany. Perhaps in some dark corners of Bavaria.

2.2 Da/Dort I think they are interchangeable. I have no example in which one of them would sound odd if the other one could fit in.

2.4 I would use Dame only in very formal circumstances or in a somehow ironic way. I don't know whether that is different is Austria.

3.2 Most Germans would understand Taxe as Taxi. It is not too uncommon to use it, but there is actually no need for it.

4.4 "Empfehlen sie mich" is something nobody would say. Sounds like 50s.

4.5 Not only a bit formal. Something for the really high circles of society. ;)


Posted By: Karat
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 3:41pm
Double.


Posted By: onebir
Date Posted: 07 February 2007 at 10:11am
I think it's great you guys are doing this. I think it'll give people a lot more confidence that the core content of the course is still valid - which it seems to be given the relatively small number of comments you're making on each unit...


Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:02am
Ok, about the Sauerkohl thing, I have never actually heard it used but when I first got to Austria they taught us that Sauerkraut was the Austrian word for Bundesdeutsch Sauerkohl.  It's possible that it's something the professor heard one time in some small town somewhere in Germany and assumed is what all Germans say. 

The difference between Da/Dort is I think only among older speakers in Austria.  I unfortunately don't have my Austrian Dictionary here at the moment but they list that as one of the differences between German and Austrian.  But I think observing the difference would be something like an old American in the South making a difference between there and yonder.


Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:13am
Unit 6:

1. Konferenz is still one of the main words but it seems more and more people say Meeting now, especially if it has anything to do with Marketing or seeming modern.

2. Auskunft is still used but die Information and the slang Infos are also very common in business German.

3. Fernamt and Ferngespräch are the long distance operator and a long distance phone call but they're as uncommon as they are in english.  Some important words are das Handy the cell phone, die Nachricht message, die SMS in Germany das SMS in Austria for Text Message, Box is Mail box on my cell phone.

4. das Auto is more common than der Wagen for a car these days.

5. Füller is a fountain pen, Kuli is short for a Kugelschreiber, a ball point pen.

6. The whole thing about Telephone calls is out of date.  I've only had a cell phone since I've been in Europe so I'm not sure exactly but I know you don't need to talk to an operator to make a long distance phone call.  I'm not sure about making collect calls.

Unit 7:

1. garnicht is now spelled gar nicht.

2. draussen is now spelled draußen

Unit 8:

1. Grösse is now spelled Größe.

Unit 9:

1. Heiss is now spelled heiß

2. Photoapparat is now spelled Fotoapparat.

Unit 10:

1. This one oddly enough is a change in english a helles Bier is translated as a light beer by this they mean something like a lager not a Light Beer like Bud or Coors Light.

Unit 11.

1. Beeil' dich.  The apostrophe in the singular imperative is no longer required.  Technically it used to be Beeile Dich but the e was so often dropped that since the spelling reform its now considered the standard and with the e a more formal alternative.

2. Friseur, the French spelling, is probably more common than Frisör.



Unit 12:

1. Sitzen and Stehen use sein in the perfect tense in Southern Germany and Austria.


Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:40am
Unit 13:

1. This chapter uses the imperfect tense, which is always used in writing but only seldom used in Germany in speech and except for haben, sein, the modals, gehen, and

geben.  The rules they give you here are what are generally used in most of Germany.  In Austria, the perfect is often used in subordinate clauses.  German: Als ich nach Hause kam vs Austrian: Als ich nach Hause gekommen bin.

If you follow the rules here Germans won't notice and the Austrians and Swiss will consider you to be educated.

2. Kennenlernen is now spelled as two word kennen lernen.

3. Saubermachen is now spelled as sauber machen.


Unit 14:


1. The e ending in the dative singular is not as common now as it was then.  Mainly it should always be used in expressions like zu/nach Hause and im Jahre although you will hear zu/nach Haus but they're considered colloquial.

Unit 16.

1. Ausserdem is now spelled Außerdem.

Unit 17:

1. Photogeschäft is now spelled Fotogeschäft.

2. Camera is no longer an accepted spelling of Kamera.

3. Plattenspieler is a record player, some subsitutes are CD-Spieler, Mp3 (Em pee drei) Player, and der Ipod.

4. Instead of Meinetwegen wegen mir is sometimes used particulary in the south.

5. Schliessen is now spelled schließen.

6. The first two rules in the notes on sentences no longer apply.  German now allows 3 letters in a row e.g. Imbissstube,Schifffahrt, and most of the Greek loan words are now

Germanified.  

7. Die Platte the record, der Cd (Zee Dee), das Mp3

Unit 18:

1. Regelmässig is now spelled regelmäßig.


Unit 19:

1. Naturally, East Germany doesn't exist anymore although you still hear drüben used in both East and West to refer to each other.  Traditionally, the rivalry was between the Protestant flat north and the Catholic mountainous south but now there is also a rivalry between the richer former west and poorer former east.


Unit 22:

1. German cars no longer have semaphores.

2. The subjunctive is not as common as it used to be particularly in the South and in Austria.  Most verbs now use würde except for the modals, sein, and haben although it

wouldn't be considered wrong to say würde sein or würde haben in speech although they would be considered colloquial.  In writing however you should still use the real forms.


Unit 23:

1. While the past subjunctive is still often used in speech the present subjunctive has become very uncommon.  Even in writing it is not used as often as it once was.  It is mainly used in newspapers because it is considered more objective.

For example: "Richard Nixon sagte, dass er kein Verbrecher ist." because it uses the indicative could imply that it is true that he's not a crook.

"Richard Nixon sagte, er sei kein Verbrecher" simply means that he said and the newspaper is not saying whether it is true or not, they're simply reporting that he said it.

I would say this is probably the only part of the grammar in this course that I might disagree with.  How indirect speech is used varies from person to person by age, education, region, and personal preference.  In Austria, I generally learned to use the

present subjunctive in formal writing, the indicative in speech, and the present subjunctive in speech to indicate I don't believe what the person said, and the the past subjuncitve in writing to indicate the same thing.  A German professor from Freiburg in

Germany told me use the present subjunctive in formal writing and speech, the indicative in everyday speech, and the past subjuncitve to indicate disbelief.  You should probably follow the rules in the book and just pick up what feels natural after a while.



Posted By: Karat
Date Posted: 08 February 2007 at 12:34pm
Only a few comments.

17.4 I wouldnt understand "wegen mir" instead of "meinetwegen". I think it shouldn't be used if you are not trying to imitate a strange dialect.

17.7 Its "die CD". "das mp3" is formally correct but I think you will hear "die mp3" very often. Its a somewhat grey area.

Thats all, I wont comment on the subjunctive, I guess your grammer knowledge is far better than mine. :) But I have the feeling that the subjunctive is slowly following the Genitiv into the cold German language grave.



Posted By: kflavin84
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 5:49am
My bad about CD. I think the Austrians tend to use das for english loan words more than the Germans. Austrians say das Email, das SMS, and das Cola while Germans use die for all those words. The Austrian logic is that they are neuter in english, and the German logic is that electronische post and Limonade are feminine so you should use die. Do you'll hear die Story for die Geschichte, which I think is one of the most annoying Denglish words.

For anyone whose finished the course you should pick up a copy of Der Dativ ist dem Genetiv sein Tod. There are a few volumes and it basically just talks about how native German speakers speak German so terribly. How they use to much English, misspell words, completely ignore the subjunctive, literally translate English idioms that are wrong in German etc. For a book about grammar it's suprisingly funny and it's reassuring to know that Germans don't understand the subjunctive either, so you're not alone.


Posted By: Karat
Date Posted: 10 February 2007 at 8:40am
The author of the book writes regularly on Spiegel.de: http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/0,1518,332092,00.html
Should be something for you if you like those self-appointed saviours of the German language. ;)


Posted By: LessPaul
Date Posted: 26 July 2007 at 2:51pm

I have just discovered this wealth of information that are the FSI language courses.  Given that some material is dated, and many of the audio files are of marginal quality, I was wondering how much, if any, interest there would be in an update effort as follows:

- OCR conversion of the printed manual to Word
   (or other common format) 
- Updating of content incorporating spelling reform and other
  input (as in this thread)
- Creation of new corrseponding audio using Text-to-speech technologies
 
I realize that text-to-speech is not a perfect answer, but it is a reasonable alternative to sometimes incomprehensible original tapes.
 
 


Posted By: saman.shahin
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 8:03am
I have Tangram source files (mp3 and printed books that scanned)
 
everyone that want this course mail me to send him/her.
 
I guess tangram is better.
 
thanks!Smile


Posted By: chrismes
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 4:02am
A general comment on spelling (from a native speaker working as a journalist):
 
I am suprised that there are many comments saying that words with ss are now spelled with ß.
 
They were all written with ß already in the 1960s except in Switzerland where they are still written with ss. But when the course was written up PCs were quasi not existing and apparently they did not have German typewriters at the State Department... ;)
 
Actually, it is rather the other way around, i.e. some words that used to be written with ß are now ss, e.g. nass instead naß (wet). The rule is that whenever the vowel is short ss follows instead of ß.
 
As regards Photo, Phantasie and the like, the spelling with Ph is still in use and considered correct (even by the 2006 Duden edition). For non-native speakers it's probably better not to burden themselves with the puzzle why it should be Foto but Philosophie and Phonetik.
 
Dort & da. There are examples where dort instead of da would sound odd: If you want to call Thomas, but his mother answers the phone you would ask: Ist Thomas da? (meaning "at home", near the mother).
 
However the word da can create confusion if Austrians and Germans talk to each other. In Austria it almost always means the same as hier (here) while in Germany da has the notion of either being present, having arrived (Ist Herr Müller schon da?) or it refers to a place which is somewhere else (i.e. synonomys to dort). It can also be used to refer to a point in the past (da habe ich mich sehr gefreut). So, apart from the latter use, if a German speaks to you, you can savely translate da to there, while if it's an Austrian you probably have to translate it to here. Big%20smile


Posted By: JennieLynn
Date Posted: 19 August 2008 at 9:29am
I plan on doing an HTML version of the German course one of these days, and I'd like to include these changes. Do the contributors mind if I use what you wrote? I'll include thanks back to you with your forum name or real name, if you like.

If anyone wants to help with the PDF to HTML conversion, let me know. I've started the French course already: http://www.ielanguages.com/fsi/frenchcontents.html


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http://www.ielanguages.com - Indo-European Languages Website
http://www.ielanguages.com/blog/ - Jennie en France Blog



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