FSI Japanese will not be effective...
Printed From: FSI Language Courses
Category: Learning Languages
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Discussion about studying languages using the FSI courses. If you would like to see a specific language forum not listed below, just let us know.
URL: http://fsi-language-courses.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=462
Printed Date: 16 January 2009 at 3:10am
Topic: FSI Japanese will not be effective...
Posted By: maclingo
Subject: FSI Japanese will not be effective...
Date Posted: 22 August 2007 at 3:49pm
Hi there,
I just found this site and thought i would share my 2 cents on the FSI japanese course.
The japanese language is very unique . Unlike most other languages, the
japanese language is extremely time sensitive. The language is
constantly evolving and
becoming more and more 'modern'. So any language course that
originates more then 10 years ago would probably not be that
effective to teach you as a
beginner. Also, im not referring to new slang words that
teenagers use, the language itself vocabulary/grammer/expressions
change with time.
Im sure other languages also change with time. The French from the 50s
is probably not going to be the same as it is now. However, Japanese is
one of those
languages that changes rapidly and so as beginners I would think that
its better to start with current Japanese then a more dated version.
So the point that im trying to make is that since the FSI programs are
very old, your time would be better invested in a more current japanese
language program.
Anybody else has a take on this?
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Replies:
Posted By: DemiPuppet
Date Posted: 22 August 2007 at 9:59pm
"So any language course that
originates more then 10 years ago would probably not be that
effective to teach you as a beginner. "
I'm not convinced that the grammar changes that much. Would it be possible to post a few Japanese examples?
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Posted By: maclingo
Date Posted: 23 August 2007 at 12:28pm
You brought up a good point. I think that indeed grammar changes much slower then
vocabulary but , on the other hand ,much like other languages, the grammar and
vocabulary in japanese go hand in hand.
As for examples, since im a beginner with this language and i try to expose myself to recent
self-study courses, i can only give a couple of basic examples that i ran into:
one year - in dated japanese would be IKKANEN as oppose to ICHINEN.
The other example i have is with particles - in dated japanese the particle NI is used as a
destination marker as oppose to E. e.g. GINKO NI IKIMASU vs. GINKO E IKIMASU.
Now, you could arguaably say that the GINKO (bank) is a place of purpose which , in that
case, merits a NI (like: PAATI NI IKIMASU) but context aside -technically speaking it
should be GINKO E IKIMASU.
Maybe someone else can give better examples...?
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Posted By: mamba9
Date Posted: 24 August 2007 at 11:56am
Using Ni instead of E, and using E instead of Ni is because of grammar rules, not because of outdated/current Japanese.
Like you said, Japanese is very unique, and learning from an FSI Course made 10 years ago would not be ineffective. 10 years might seem a lot from someone living in America. Just 100 years ago was the first world war, 200 years ago was the era of cowboys and indians, and 300 years ago was when America was born. You must consider Japan's thousands of years of history. The strict grammar of the Japanese language changing in a course of a measly 10 years? I don't think so.
If anything, it is a bonus. Japanese society basically lives on 2 time scales:
The ancient past of tea ceremonies, celebrations, behaviours such as bowing, etc.
The rushed future of hovering maglev trains, plasma screens, robotics, and like Marty said in Back to the Future, "The best things are made in Japan."
If anything that will change, its the vocabulary. Of course that won't be too hard, since most the new words are borrowed from english and used in katakana - just sound it out, and figure out what it means.
If you want to learn the language of "what is used now," the whole point of learning the language is lost. If you learn the language, you must also plunge into the country's culture and history.
And when you do visit Japan some day and visit the beautiful country side of Japan, escaping the cityscape, it will seem like you are already living in the past. Zen gardens, emperial palaces, and still seeing people wear kimonos as everyday clothing, you're going to say, "Damn, I should have studied that FSI course!"
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Posted By: maclingo
Date Posted: 28 August 2007 at 11:16am
Thanks for your reply,
just want to address a few things that you said:
First the whole NI and E thing - so i was basically giving it as an example for how in older
japanese the grammar rule was to use NI as a destination marker while in current japanese
the rule changed and now they use E. Now, it may be that the grammar rule has never
changed and you were always suppose to use E as a destination marker but that specific
older generation colloquialism just used NI......
The whole '10 year' period that i mentioned - i was referring to self study courses, the
japanese FSI course i believe is about 30-40 years old and so i would think that someone
who is studying japanese will fair better by getting a more current source.
Now, as i've heard it from my many japanese instructors and from going to japan and talking
people about the japanese language, the japanese language is evolving and changing rapidly.
now it may be , as mention above, that the grammar rules do not change but it is how they
are used or more to the point IGNORED by specific generations of japanese people. I've
heard japanese instructors talking about that sometimes even as little as a 5 year difference in
age would produce a considerable noticeable difference in their japanese. Now, that's not to
say that they do not understand each other and that it is a totally different language BUT the
difference is there.
From my own personal experience i've only been exposed to this in a very mild way - my
japanese instructors for example , would often talk about how there are not any useful
Japanese language text books out there because the japanese language is just not being used
like that anymore....
As far as using FSI for japanese i think people should use whatever works for them. If for
some reason every word they hear on the FSI course just sticks and you understand the
concepts and grammar rules clearly, then by all means, use it. However, i think it is important
to note that it is a very old course and that specifically in the japanese language it makes a
difference.
Besides...if you're going to learn japanese, or any language for that matter, you should never
rely on one single method or course.
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Posted By: glossika
Date Posted: 04 September 2007 at 2:20pm
So what you're saying is that Japanese people in Japan more than 40 years old would be difficult to understand because they use a more ancient grammar and more antiquated vocabulary?
By the way, your examples are much more than 10 years, 50 years, or even 100 years old. There are also sayings that transcend generations and thousands of years, especially in East Asia, that usually use the original grammar intact.
The English language is changing constantly too. "Blog" is so new, but so used by everybody, and likewise you'd have to be born on Mars (or born yesterday) to now know the word.
The FSI method is not the end-all for language learning and nobody is claiming to use it solely. It does however have a great methodology, and if you're able to use it, you'll make great progress. I believe most of the language enthusiasts on this site know that most language products on the market are for entertainment value and there's not much entertainment in real language learning (except for the pure entertainment of learning another language and culture). The drills would be painful for those whose lives depend on blockbuster movies. But through this pain is a lot of gain. That reminds me of the Russian saying: тише едешь - дальше будешь, which is good to keep in mind when doing these courses.
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Posted By: jshema
Date Posted: 11 September 2007 at 10:47am
I still would very much like free access to the FSI Japanese program even though it is quite dated.
As the introduction to my cassette version of level 2 states, this program teaches the language as spoken by educated Japanese in Tokyo. For purposes of translating Japanese news media, business communications, technical, legal or medical documents this is essential.
Of course highly informal street and slang Japanese is in constant flux but that's not the environment for which I need to regain proficiency (five years of dormancy since masters).
I've never seen any self-study course come even close to matching the thoroughness and efficiency of the FSI courses. I used the German program to test out of four semesters in college and I'd love to have the Japanese in MP3 format.
FSI Japanese gives a rock-solid foundation, contemporary and informal nuance is easily added by diligent use of the also very excellent Japanesepod101.com site.
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Posted By: jostfa18
Date Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:55am
Hello, I would like comment on this subject. I was studying Japanese a couple of years ago and during that time I bought a reader of Japanese stories written from 1900 to around 1950. One day when my Japanese friend was over he took the book and started to read it. He told me that he could barely understand it and that it made little sense because virtually none of the words where used anymore. So I cannot say how much the grammar changes but I do concur that Japanese vocabulary has been changing rapidly over the past century and continues to do so.
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Posted By: ladyskywalker
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 1:11pm
Isn't that typical of virtually *any* language, though?
------------- http://dragonfruit.wordpress.com/ - Dragon Fruit - A blog devoted to East Asian languages and cultures
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Posted By: mspxlation
Date Posted: 29 November 2007 at 1:40am
Hi, I'm a new registrant and late to this discussion, but I'm a Japanese-English translator who began learning Japanese 35 years ago from Jorden and Chaplin's Beginning Japanese, published in 1962.
Written by people who hadn't actually lived in Japan since the 1950s, it was a bit outdated, both in situations and vocabulary, by 1972, when I started learning out of it. However, when I first went to Japan in 1977, MOST of the things that I had learned were far from useless.
There was one grammatical structure whose actual usage differed from what I had been taught, but the greatest differences were in vocabulary. Just to take a couple of examples, a beat cop was not a "junsa," but an "o-mawari-san." A maid was a "jochuu" in the 1950s, an "o-tetsudai-san" in the 1970s, and a "kaseifu" starting somewhere in the 1990s.
Then there's the whole realm of "wasei Eigo," or "made-in-Japan" English. On a recent visit to Japan, some friends took me to a scenic lookout that had a sign "aidoringu stoppu" ("idling stop") in its parking lot. To me, it sounded like this was the proper place to idle one's engine, but in fact, it was just the opposite: a warning to people NOT to idle their engines. It's even worse when English words are chopped into unrecognizable pieces and reassembled, so that "personal computer" becomes "pasokon."
I haven't seen the FSI Japanese course (I was under the impression that they used the Jorden/Chaplin text.) However, if it's old, my guess is that most of the grammar will be fine, including the honorifics in business situations, but the vocabulary and situations will be extremely out of date.
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Posted By: Ivan Zimmer
Date Posted: 30 July 2008 at 11:37am
Actually, all materials should be welcome. Older materials have historical value and will also help students deal with written language. For anyone seriously studying a language, older language materials give clues as how to language develops and how the teaching methodologies of languages have evolved. Furthermore, language materials are basically neutral. The language of which you speak that changes so quickly are generally slang and technological/socio-political terms. Those items are usually not expressed in textbooks but can be learned through interaction with native speakers and reading newspapers and popular literature.
Personally, I would be overjoyed to see more Jpanese language learning content, old or otherwise.
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Posted By: regd
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 8:11pm
Interesting as a discussion starter, but the premise behind it is foolish. Yes, the Japanese language (like many languages) has added words over the last 30 years. But the basics -- words for many common objects or things like food, and basic verbs and more -- have definitely not changed.
The information in the FSI Japanese course will give you a good start in the language. Any new words/concepts you can learn. But without the basics, all that new stuff is pretty much useless.
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Posted By: mspxlation
Date Posted: 08 August 2008 at 11:39pm
It's not that the Japanese language has changed more than other languages. The reason that young Japanese have trouble reading literature from before 1900 is that until World War II, a lot of literature was written in classical Japanese or an approximation of it. Imagine if all English-speaking authors wrote in Chaucerian English till 1945. That's sort of what happened in Japan. The written language and the spoken language were pretty far apart.
My point about the FSI Japanese course is that it's the 1962 Jorden/Chaplin book, Beginning Japanese. I'm not sure that even the FSI is using it anymore. If you'd use the vocabulary in it in Japan, you'd sound like someone saying, "I'm listening to some music on the Victrola and drinking a beer from the ice box." People would understand you, but you'd sound as if you'd stepped out of a time warp.
Some of the usages in the Jorden book are now considered offensive, such as calling a maid a jochuu, and some of the situations are obsolete, such as overloading your household electrical system by watching TV and having lamps on at the same time.
Jorden's more recent book, written with Mari Noda, Japanese: the Spoken Language (JSL) is much more up-to-date, although its grammar explanations can be confusing. The grammar explanations in the earlier book are better, but the dialogues and listening exercises in the newer book are extremely natural. Not many Japanese textbooks offer listening exercises at normal speed.
I once had a native speaker of Japanese listen to a tape of a dialogue about ordering home delivery of food, and she asked, "Did they get that by bugging the restaurant's phone?" After teaching out of that book, I took a trip to Japan and tried to call a friend at her office. As I talked to the switchboard operator, I suddenly realized that I was doing one of the dialogues from JSL almost verbatim.
Jorden's Reading Japanese teaches some obsolete written forms, especially using kanji in places where most people now use kana, but its teaching method makes learning kanji almost effortless. It teaches 450 kanji, and when I was a student, I used to wish that there were 4 volumes of it so that I could learn all the joyo kanji that way.
If you use Beginning Japanese, be sure to supplement it with something that has more up-to-date vocabulary. Also, be aware that people don't say things like mada tabemasen for "I haven't eaten yet." They say, mada tabete imasen. I no longer have a copy of the book, but if I did, I could go through it mark some of the linguistic and cultural changes.
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Posted By: toivo
Date Posted: 22 August 2008 at 1:51pm
日本語教育論集 世界の日本語教育
Japanese language education (collected papers)
Japanese language education worldwide
https://www.jpf.go.jp/j/japanese/survey/globe/index.html - https://www.jpf.go.jp/j/japanese/survey/globe/index.html
There are .pdf versions of the papers starting with #13.
An excellent resource, if the few papers I've had a look at are anything to go by.
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Posted By: oldlang2003
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 6:34pm
Well put, reqd.
I'm always amused by the occasional posts lamenting the 'dated-ness' of the FSI material. Sure, there are utterances that might sound a little stilted now, but I'd guess that 90% / 95% of the strangeness is lexical, not grammatical.
Let me list a few movies that most will remember:
Star Wars (1977)
Rocky (1976)
Jaws (1975)
If I were a foreigner learning English today , I'd LOVE to be able to express myself as well as the actors and actresses in those films. People watch those films without comment; no one turns to their partner and says, "Wow...they sure talked funny back then!"
The basic structures of English have not changed dramatically in several hundred years. We still use a Subject - Verb - Object word order, for example. And adjectives still generally precede nouns. Fill the slots of these basic patterns with the nouns and verbs and pronouns of your choice, and you'll end up with a grammatical utterance, whether it's:
"Lord Elgin's coachman insulted the cheeky chimneysweep.", or
"Britney Spears slapped the poor cameraman."
Different words, same structure.
So I wouldn't get hung up with the stray anachronism. Learn (and overlearn!) the basic patterns of the language, and you'll be able to 'plug in' whatever you want to talk about.
Two last points:
1. Not everyone you speak to is going to be a 20-something. Your boss, or your boss' colleague, or someone you'll want to impress probably grew up in the 60s and 70s, and they'll find nothing wrong with your speech.
2. Yes, you may sound a little more formal, or a little more polite, than most people your age. But that's not a bad thing. Some people will appreciate it.
------------- Former DLI student
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Posted By: schmev123
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:19pm
I have the Japanese I and II courses. I'd be afraid to scan because I think the copyright laws for this course are different. If anybody wants to borrow it, we can discuss.
regards,
Evan
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