Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Chinese (Standard)
 FSI Language Courses Forum : Learning Languages : Chinese (Standard)
Message Icon Topic: Shi bu shi, or Shi......bu shi? Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
Alew
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 22 December 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20
Quote Alew Replybullet Topic: Shi bu shi, or Shi......bu shi?
    Posted: 22 December 2006 at 1:20pm
FSI and Pimsleur teach many things differently, which is getting me confused.  In FSI, for instance, the pronunciation of "Mei guo ren" (american" stresses the MEI, while Pimsleur, stresses Guo (Mei GUO ren). 

Gramatically, they also differ, which brings me to my question.  FSI teaches that you can ask yes/no questions by doing the equivelant of:

"You are American, are you not?"
Ni shi meiguo ren, bu shi?

while Pimsleur says that you should do it this way:
"Are you or are you not American?"
Ni shi bu shi meiguo ren?

FSI also says that in some cases you can say,
"You are American; are you or are you not?"
Ni shi meiguo ren shi bu shi?

So which is it?  And can I trust either of these sources for true information in the future?  I imagine both are correct.  I just wish there were a course that presented all the ways of saying something (for instance, there are two or three ways at least to say "if" in Chinese)...

Thanks!
Alex
IP IP Logged
TheBigZaboon
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 06 August 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Quote TheBigZaboon Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2006 at 8:10pm
I think all are correct. However as in any other language, the circumstances in which they are used are slightly different. In the FSI courses, everything is introduced in the context of a short exchange, and the version chosen is correct for that exchange. In fact, you will often hear the refrain, "In module such and such you learned..." At that point there will be an explanation on the tape or in the text as to why this time it is different, or when to use what, etc. There are often explanations in the texts, too, so be sure to read them carefully. 
 
If you look at the introductions for the various texts, you will see there is attribution for dialogues, etc., given to a large number of native speakers, who also participated in the recording of the materials. At the point of recording, take my word for it, a native speaker will refuse to record anything incorrect. Although you may run a very slight risk of something non-standard when only one or two native speakers are participating, the team in this case is both broad and deep, in terms of both experience and accent.
 
As to having the entire range of grammatical or usage possibilities introduced at one time, that method is not very practical when the emphasis is on learing to use the language rather than learning to parse the grammar possibilites.
 
I think you can trust the FSI materials. There may be a few terms that are out of date due to changes in politics (tongzhi - comrade is not used the way it used to be anymore), or changes in lifestyle (no mention anywhere of computers or mobile phones). But the language itself is still covered completely and in depth.
 
As to Pimsleur, I've bought certain language sets as gifts for nieces before they went overseas, and they seemed delighted with the results. But I've never used Pimsleur materials myself. You must also keep in mind that  they are much more limited in objective and scope. The only serious caveat (read complaint) I've heard about them is that the Cantonese may have been made using American Cantonese speakers rather than Hong Kong or Guangzhou/Guangdong speakers. But I have no way of knowing if this is true or not.
 
In any case, if you use the FSI materials, you will get the best grounding I think it is possible to get without being in a total immersion course, or living in a Chinese-speaking environment. Just make sure you listen to the tapes, AND read the texts thoroughly. 
 
Good luck.
 
TBZ


Edited by TheBigZaboon - 22 December 2006 at 8:13pm
IP IP Logged
Alew
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 22 December 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20
Quote Alew Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2006 at 11:20pm
Thanks for the detailed response!

I was worried more about comprehension than production--though, for instance, I may be completely comfortable asking a yes or no question in one of the forms, and even if natives understand me when I use a certain form, it is possible that I will not understand if they use a different form.  I haven't gotten vary far yet, though, and it's probably, like you said, going to be covered in further modules.

Thanks again for the in-depth response!!
Alex
IP IP Logged
raincrowlee
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 12 October 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 27
Quote raincrowlee Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2006 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Alew

FSI and Pimsleur teach many things differently, which is getting me confused.  In FSI, for instance, the pronunciation of "Mei guo ren" (american" stresses the MEI, while Pimsleur, stresses Guo (Mei GUO ren). 


When I say them, the syllables have equal stress. My girlfriend is the same.

Gramatically, they also differ, which brings me to my question.  FSI teaches that you can ask yes/no questions by doing the equivelant of:

"You are American, are you not?"
Ni shi meiguo ren, bu shi?

while Pimsleur says that you should do it this way:
"Are you or are you not American?"
Ni shi bu shi meiguo ren?

FSI also says that in some cases you can say,
"You are American; are you or are you not?"
Ni shi meiguo ren shi bu shi?

So which is it?  And can I trust either of these sources for true information in the future?  I imagine both are correct. 


I haven't heard anyone saying the last version, but it doesn't sound wrong. The way Pimsleur is teaching is the way I most commonly hear it and use it, with most verbs.

I just wish there were a course that presented all the ways of saying something (for instance, there are two or three ways at least to say "if" in Chinese)...


Yeah, most particles have three or four forms. Some of them are different in levels of formality, but most of them are just different forms. It would be nice to have a reference listing them all, but I think most classes want to teach you one way, so you won't be confused, and when you're comfortable with that, they might introduce others. Fair enough, I think.
IP IP Logged
Alew
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 22 December 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20
Quote Alew Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2006 at 8:06am
Thank you for the explanations!  I guess that until the courses teach the other ways of saying things I just have to try to guess what people mean when they use other forms.  And when I already have "Ni", "shi", and "mei guo ren" somewhere in the sentence, I guess it should be obvious what they're talking about.  I'm still not very far in the FSI course, though, so it's possible that they will teach the other forms, too.  I'll just stick with it for a few more modules and see where I am then.

Thanks again for your help!
Alex
IP IP Logged
veetok
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 24 December 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Quote veetok Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2006 at 6:38pm
I hope this reply is not too redundant but I have been studying Chinese for the last two years and from my experience with Chinese friends of mine and learning materials, I think the most common way to say it is "Ni shi bu shi mei guo ren?." I suppose you could say "Ni shi mei guo ren, shi bu shi?" but it just seems like extra words. I've never heard "Ni shi mei guo ren, bu shi?" before so I suppose that it is rarely used (the course is about 30-40 years old I think so that may also explain it). Also, you may also say "Ni shi mei guo ren ma?" Adding "ma" to the end of a sentence turns it into a question automatically so if you want to avoid the whole confusion you may also say that. Hope that helps!


Edited by veetok - 24 December 2006 at 6:42pm
IP IP Logged
Alew
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 22 December 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20
Quote Alew Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2006 at 9:53pm
Thank you, veetok!  Both courses taught "ma", and I now have a wealth of ways to ask yes/no questions.  "ma" is obviously the "easiest" one (none of them are particularly hard, of course), and I shouldn't have any problem trying to ask questions--what I was worried about was comprehension.  A native speaker is likely to use any of the ways that I've learned to ask a question.  Although you only need to know one way to speak the language, you need to know all of them to understand it.

Thanks to the informative replies from you and the other posters in this thread (thanks again!!!) I now feel I have a good grasp on yes/no questions.  I was worried (and still am a bit) that many, many things in the Chinese language could be said in many ways (take "if" as an example).  Raincrowlee said that there were 2-3 forms of every participle, with varying levels of formality or just different forms.  The problem is, whatever course I use is only likely to teach one, at least at first, because it only really focuses on my ability to say what I want to say.

That said, I understand why it can't teach all of the ways at once.  Thanks for all of the helpful replies!!!

Alex
IP IP Logged
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



This page was generated in 0.360 seconds.