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maclingo
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Quote maclingo Replybullet Topic: FSI Japanese will not be effective...
    Posted: 22 August 2007 at 3:49pm
Hi there,
I just  found this site and thought i would share my 2 cents on the FSI japanese course.

The japanese language is very unique . Unlike most other languages, the japanese language is extremely time sensitive. The language is constantly evolving and
becoming more and more 'modern'.  So any language course that originates more then 10 years ago would probably not be that  effective to teach you as a
beginner.  Also, im not referring to new slang words that teenagers use, the language itself vocabulary/grammer/expressions change with time.

Im sure other languages also change with time. The French from the 50s is probably not going to be the same as it is now. However, Japanese is one of those
languages that changes rapidly and so as beginners I would think that its better to start with current Japanese then a more dated version.

So the point that im trying to make is that since the FSI programs are very old, your time would be better invested in a more current japanese language program.

Anybody else has a take on this?
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DemiPuppet
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Quote DemiPuppet Replybullet Posted: 22 August 2007 at 9:59pm
"So any language course that originates more then 10 years ago would probably not be that  effective to teach you as a  beginner. "

I'm not convinced that the grammar changes that much. Would it be possible to post a few Japanese examples?
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maclingo
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Quote maclingo Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2007 at 12:28pm
You brought up a good point. I think that indeed grammar changes much slower then
vocabulary but , on the other hand ,much like other languages, the grammar and
vocabulary in japanese go hand in hand.

As for examples, since im a beginner with this language and i try to expose myself to recent
self-study courses, i can only give a couple of basic examples that i ran into:
one year - in dated japanese would be IKKANEN as oppose to ICHINEN.
The other example i have is with particles - in dated japanese the particle NI is used as a
destination marker as oppose to E.  e.g. GINKO NI IKIMASU vs. GINKO E IKIMASU.
Now, you could arguaably say that the GINKO (bank) is a place of purpose which , in that
case, merits a NI (like: PAATI  NI IKIMASU) but context aside -technically speaking it
should be GINKO E IKIMASU.
Maybe someone else can give better examples...?
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mamba9
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Quote mamba9 Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2007 at 11:56am
Using Ni instead of E, and using E instead of Ni is because of grammar rules, not because of outdated/current Japanese. 
 
Like you said, Japanese is very unique, and learning from an FSI Course made 10 years ago would not be ineffective.  10 years might seem a lot from someone living in America.  Just 100 years ago was the first world war, 200 years ago was the era of cowboys and indians, and 300 years ago was when America was born.  You must consider Japan's thousands of years of history.  The strict grammar of the Japanese language changing in a course of a measly 10 years?  I don't think so.
 
If anything, it is a bonus.  Japanese society basically lives on 2 time scales:
The ancient past of tea ceremonies, celebrations, behaviours such as bowing, etc.
The rushed future of hovering maglev trains, plasma screens, robotics, and like Marty said in Back to the Future, "The best things are made in Japan."
 
If anything that will change, its the vocabulary.  Of course that won't be too hard, since most the new words are borrowed from english and used in katakana - just sound it out, and figure out what it means.
 
If you want to learn the language of "what is used now," the whole point of learning the language is lost.  If you learn the language, you must also plunge into the country's culture and history.
 
And when you do visit Japan some day and visit the beautiful country side of Japan, escaping the cityscape, it will seem like you are already living in the past.  Zen gardens, emperial palaces, and still seeing people wear kimonos as everyday clothing, you're going to say, "Damn, I should have studied that FSI course!"
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maclingo
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Quote maclingo Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2007 at 11:16am
Thanks for your reply,
just want to address a few things that you said:
First the whole NI and E thing - so i was basically giving it as an example for how in older
japanese the grammar rule was to use NI as a destination marker while in current japanese
the rule changed and now they use E. Now, it may be that the grammar rule has never
changed and you were always suppose to use E as a destination marker but that specific
older generation colloquialism just used NI......

The whole '10 year' period that i mentioned - i was referring to self study courses, the
japanese FSI course i believe is about 30-40 years old and so i would think that someone
who is studying japanese will fair better by getting a more current source.

Now, as i've heard it from my many japanese instructors and from going to japan and talking
people about the japanese  language, the japanese language is evolving and changing rapidly.
now it may be , as mention above, that the grammar rules do not change but it is how they
are used or more to the point IGNORED by specific generations of japanese people. I've
heard japanese instructors talking about that sometimes even as little as a  5 year difference in
age would produce a considerable noticeable difference in their japanese. Now, that's not to
say that they do not understand each other and that it is a totally different language BUT the
difference is there.

From my own personal experience i've only been exposed to this in a very mild way - my
japanese instructors for example , would often talk about how there are not any useful
Japanese language text books out there because the japanese language is just not being used
like that anymore....

As far as using FSI for japanese i think people should use whatever works for them. If for
some reason every word they hear on the FSI course just sticks and you understand the
concepts and grammar rules clearly, then by all means, use it. However, i think it is important
to note that it is a very old course and that specifically in the japanese language it makes a
difference.

Besides...if you're going to learn japanese, or any language for that matter, you should never
rely on one single  method or course.
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glossika
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Quote glossika Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2007 at 2:20pm
So what you're saying is that Japanese people in Japan more than 40 years old would be difficult to understand because they use a more ancient grammar and more antiquated vocabulary?
 
By the way, your examples are much more than 10 years, 50 years, or even 100 years old. There are also sayings that transcend generations and thousands of years, especially in East Asia, that usually use the original grammar intact.
 
The English language is changing constantly too.  "Blog" is so new, but so used by everybody, and likewise you'd have to be born on Mars (or born yesterday) to now know the word.
 
The FSI method is not the end-all for language learning and nobody is claiming to use it solely. It does however have a great methodology, and if you're able to use it, you'll make great progress. I believe most of the language enthusiasts on this site know that most language products on the market are for entertainment value and there's not much entertainment in real language learning (except for the pure entertainment of learning another language and culture). The drills would be painful for those whose lives depend on blockbuster movies. But through this pain is a lot of gain. That reminds me of the Russian saying: тише едешь - дальше будешь, which is good to keep in mind when doing these courses.
 
 
 
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jshema
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Quote jshema Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2007 at 10:47am
I still would very much like free access to the FSI Japanese program even though it is quite dated.

As the introduction to my cassette version of level 2 states, this program teaches the language as spoken by educated Japanese in Tokyo. For purposes of translating Japanese news media, business communications, technical, legal or medical documents this is essential.

Of course highly informal street and slang Japanese is in constant flux but that's not the environment for which I need to regain proficiency (five years of dormancy since masters).

I've never seen any self-study course come even close to matching the thoroughness and efficiency of the FSI courses. I used the German program to test out of four semesters in college and I'd love to have the Japanese in MP3 format.

FSI Japanese gives a rock-solid foundation, contemporary and informal nuance is easily added by diligent use of the also very excellent Japanesepod101.com site.
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jostfa18
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Quote jostfa18 Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2007 at 9:55am
Hello, I would like comment on this subject. I was studying Japanese a couple of years ago and during that time I bought a reader of Japanese stories written from 1900 to around 1950. One day when my Japanese friend was over he took the book and started to read it. He told me that he could barely understand it and that it made little sense because virtually none of the words where used anymore. So I cannot say how much the grammar changes but I do concur that Japanese vocabulary has been changing rapidly over the past century and continues to do so.
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ladyskywalker
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Quote ladyskywalker Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2007 at 1:11pm
Isn't that typical of virtually *any* language, though?
Dragon Fruit - A blog devoted to East Asian languages and cultures
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mspxlation
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Quote mspxlation Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2007 at 1:40am
Hi, I'm a new registrant and late to this discussion, but I'm a Japanese-English translator who began learning Japanese 35 years ago from Jorden and Chaplin's Beginning Japanese, published in 1962.

Written by people who hadn't actually lived in Japan since the 1950s, it was a bit outdated, both in situations and vocabulary, by 1972, when I started learning out of it. However, when I first went to Japan in 1977, MOST of the things that I had learned were far from useless.

There was one grammatical structure whose actual usage differed from what I had been taught, but the greatest differences were in vocabulary. Just to take a couple of examples, a beat cop was not a "junsa," but an "o-mawari-san." A maid was a "jochuu" in the 1950s, an "o-tetsudai-san" in the 1970s, and a "kaseifu" starting somewhere in the 1990s.

Then there's the whole realm of "wasei Eigo," or "made-in-Japan" English. On a recent visit to Japan, some friends took me to a scenic lookout that had a sign "aidoringu stoppu" ("idling stop")  in its parking lot. To me, it sounded like this was the proper place to idle one's engine, but in fact, it was just the opposite: a warning to people NOT to idle their engines. It's even worse when English words are chopped into unrecognizable pieces and reassembled, so that "personal computer" becomes "pasokon."

I haven't seen the FSI Japanese course (I was under the impression that they used the Jorden/Chaplin text.) However, if it's old, my guess is that most of the grammar will be fine, including the honorifics in business situations, but the vocabulary and situations will be extremely out of date.
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