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davideagen
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Quote davideagen Replybullet Topic: Changes since 1961
    Posted: 07 January 2007 at 11:23pm
Te FSI German course was written in 1961. Have there been any significant changes in the language since then that I should be aware of? Other than any technology related terms of course.

-Dave
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Exocrist
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Quote Exocrist Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2007 at 5:53am
There are some words that were more colloquial that have become more mainstream, and it'll be tough to figure out what they all are without experience.  I haven't actually gone through the FSI German to see what's in it, so I'm not sure how big of a difference it'll make.  After you get more comfortable with German, try reading some newspapers or  watching some German TV or listening to German Radio.  That should help you become a little more familiar with any modernizations.  Maybe watch some recent German movies (or German dubs of American movies, as they're much more common).  I'm not a native speaker, but maybe one would be able to identify some bigger changes since the 60s.  I hear people say how "the Genetiv case is dying", which I think is sort of true, since lots of people just use Dativ instead.

There IS also the Spelling Reform of 199 to consider, but even that isn't too big of a deal.  Lots of Germans use the old rules, and they're fairly similar.  Pretty much everyone can make sense of both conventions, because they're pretty close to the same.

Here are some links to get you started:
http://www.spiegel.de
http://wwitv.com/portal.htm
http://www.dw-world.de
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_spelling_reform_of_1996
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kflavin84
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Quote kflavin84 Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 2:59am
I'm an American living in Austria, and I figured I'd write up what I consider to be old fashioned chapter by chapter in the FSI course.

Chapter 1:


1. Verzeihung seems to be a bit strong, might just be an Austrian thing but I once got corrected for saying it.  I would use Entschuldigung or 'Tschuldigung instead.


2. Mark and Pfennig = Euro and cent.  Cent is supposed to be pronounced like English but out in the country you'll hear it pronounced with a ts sound.


3. Sauerkraut is Sauerkraut in Austria but sometimes in Germany you hear Sauerkohl.

4. Fräulein is NOT used anymore.  At best it's considered old fashioned, usually somewhat sexist, and often times is only used to refer to a prositute.

Saying Fräulein with a heavy american accent is used to make fun of Amis who only know German from watching war movies.

5. The word nicht is often not pronounced as nicht.  In Low German the word is nich without the t, so in Northern Germany the word nich has become slang, and since Northern German is considered to be sort of the best German nich is used all over especially by young people.  In some places you might hear it pronounced as nischt, and in Bavaria and Austria you'll hear net or nit but net is considered to be dialect while nich is considered to be slang. 

6.  Instead of nein you'll often hear nee in most of Germany and na in the south and in Austria.  Once again nee is considered slang and na dialect. 

Chapter 2:


1. gnädige Frau might have been considered polite 50 years ago in diplomatic circles but to me it sounds like calling someone m'Lady in english.

2. Es ist dort sehr nett.  This is more an Austrian thing but for me da means something nearby and dort is something very far away.  It's really a matter of feeling but even in Austria they are becoming more and more interchangeable everyday.

3. Strasse is now spelled Straße after the spelling reform.

4. Die Dame is still used a lot in Austria but it's possible it might be a little old fashioned in Germany.  Not sure about that.

5. heissen is now spelled heißen





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kflavin84
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Quote kflavin84 Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 4:51am
Chapter 3:

1. Weiss is now spelled weiß

2. Die Taxe means the tax or tarriff.  It's listed as northern german regional slang in my dictionary but i've never heard it even in Berlin, and there the Taxis say Taxi on them.  Just say das Taxi, die Taxis.  Most Germans probably won't know die Taxe as a Taxi.

3.  Omnibus and Autobus sounds like saying "Are you taking the Omnibus or your motor car?"  in English.  Just say der Bus.

4. You can say Universität but in everyday speech most people just say Uni like British Uni but pronounced without the y at the beginning.  So ooh-knee not you-knee.  Of course with german vowels not the long drawn out English ones.

5.  gross is now spelled groß.  So, Daneben ist ein großer Parkplatz.

6.   For words like Zwanzig or any word ending in -ig, proper Hochdeutsch Bühneaussprache (Stage pronunciation) says they should be pronounced as ich.  Many people in the West, the East, and Berlin pronounce it as something sounding like -isch (Technically there is a different sound according to linguists but to German native speakers it's isch and that's what they say when making fun of the accent), and in the south, austria, and switzerland, you hear it pronounced as -ick.  Although, -ich is starting to spread into Austria, it my experience it's better to say -ich and then later you'll start to pick up the accent of the region.  For me I still pronounce unusual words as -ich but numbers as -ick without even thinking about it.

7. gibt in Hochdeutsch is pronounced as gibt, but in the really old spelling before the 20's it was spelled giebt and is often pronounced so especially in the East.

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Aaaa
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Quote Aaaa Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 5:07am
kflavin84 - this stuff is very interesting, are you going to do the whole lot, both volumes? I'll take note of it all.

By 'Chapter' do you mean 'Unit'?
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kflavin84
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Quote kflavin84 Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 5:17am
Chapter 4:

1. Angehörige sounds funny to me the way he says it.  It sounds like he is saying Anjehörije which is Berlin dialect.  In Berlin, Cologne, and parts of former East Germany G's can become J, so you'll hear something like.

Ne jut jebratens Jans is ne jute Jabe Jottes.

Eine gut gebratens Gans ist eine gute Gabe Gottes.

2. Sonnabend is the traditional northern form of the word for Saturday.  Samstag is the standard form used everywhere else and used by most younger and educated speakers even in the north.  My first trip to Hamburg I used the word Sonnabend, and the person smiled and said I could just say Samstag.

3. Grüssen is now spelled grüßen.

4. empfehlen Sie mich is something I've never heard before, it means recommend me, and is probably just really old fashioned and formal.

5.  Frau Gemahlin is probably a little too formal to actually be used in most situations.

6. Dreissig is now spelled Dreißig.  Always use ß after ei, au, äu, and long vowels.

Chapter 5:

1.  I've never heard Etagenhaus.  I would say Mietshaus or Wohnhaus, maybe even Mehrfamilien(wohn)haus. 


Etage is used for floor or story in Germany, and Stock is more common in Austria although Stock is commonly used everywhere, while Etage is generally only used in Germany.  Geschoss is a third synonym but is uncommon except in the word Erdegeschoss the ground floor.  Stock is probably the most the common of the three.  Ebene is used for very large floors, like the 3rd floor of a shopping mall, a parking garage, or an airport terminal.

2.  Schreibmaschine is typewriter, you'll probably want to substitute der Computer.  Pronounced like English with a German accent so a little y sound before a German long u and a German -er at the end.


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Karat
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Quote Karat Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 3:40pm
Some comments from a native speaker perspective on your comments. I write only about the points I don't completely agree with or which could need some clarification.

Chapter 1.1 Verzeihung is indeed a bit strong and sounds formal. But it is completely appropriate to say it to somebody you would adress with "Sie".

1.3 Sauerkraut remains Sauerkraut. ;) I have never heard "Sauerkohl" to be honest but I am from Northern Germany. Perhaps in some dark corners of Bavaria.

2.2 Da/Dort I think they are interchangeable. I have no example in which one of them would sound odd if the other one could fit in.

2.4 I would use Dame only in very formal circumstances or in a somehow ironic way. I don't know whether that is different is Austria.

3.2 Most Germans would understand Taxe as Taxi. It is not too uncommon to use it, but there is actually no need for it.

4.4 "Empfehlen sie mich" is something nobody would say. Sounds like 50s.

4.5 Not only a bit formal. Something for the really high circles of society. ;)


Edited by Karat - 06 February 2007 at 3:42pm
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Karat
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Quote Karat Replybullet Posted: 06 February 2007 at 3:41pm
Double.


Edited by Karat - 06 February 2007 at 3:41pm
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onebir
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Quote onebir Replybullet Posted: 07 February 2007 at 10:11am
I think it's great you guys are doing this. I think it'll give people a lot more confidence that the core content of the course is still valid - which it seems to be given the relatively small number of comments you're making on each unit...
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kflavin84
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Quote kflavin84 Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2007 at 5:02am
Ok, about the Sauerkohl thing, I have never actually heard it used but when I first got to Austria they taught us that Sauerkraut was the Austrian word for Bundesdeutsch Sauerkohl.  It's possible that it's something the professor heard one time in some small town somewhere in Germany and assumed is what all Germans say. 

The difference between Da/Dort is I think only among older speakers in Austria.  I unfortunately don't have my Austrian Dictionary here at the moment but they list that as one of the differences between German and Austrian.  But I think observing the difference would be something like an old American in the South making a difference between there and yonder.
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