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Turkish comments and question

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URL: http://fsi-language-courses.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=401
Printed Date: 16 January 2009 at 3:19am


Topic: Turkish comments and question
Posted By: magister
Subject: Turkish comments and question
Date Posted: 08 May 2007 at 1:19pm
After an untold number of hours of sweat and toil, I finished FSI Turkish Vol. I today.  Well, that's not entirely true -- since I'm a language lover it was actually an untold number of hours of grammatical pleasure, of linguistic joy!
 
And, except for the cost of blank CDs upon which to burn the audio files, it was all free.  So I want to extend a hearty "thank you" to gdfellows for hosting this site, and to DemiPuppet for contributing the course in the first place.
 
Can anyone (Daristani?) point out some words or phrases in Vol. I that, because they are particularly dated, I should avoid actively using?
 
Again, thank you.
 
On to Vol. II!



Replies:
Posted By: daristani
Date Posted: 08 May 2007 at 6:37pm

I’ve looked quickly through the initial dialogues in the lessons in volume one of the Turkish course, and noted the following words as being possibly a bit old-fashioned:

 

unit 5:  estağfurullah   -- I don’t think younger Turks use this expression much, but there’s really no more modern word to replace it, and it does fit very nicely to express humility when people compliment you, etc.  It will be much appreciated by older people, and possibly people of an Islamic bent, but will sound somewhat old-fashioned to the younger generation.

 

unit 8:  umumiyetle – Most Turks these days say “genellikle”; some 30 years ago, I remember being complimented effusively by an older gentleman for using this Arabic-derived word, which he though extremely elegant in contrast to “genellikle”, which was then taking hold among younger people.  He pronounced this word with utter scorn, as an abomination to the Turkish language.  Nowadays, though, “umumiyetle” is distinctly old-fashioned, and has been almost universally replaced by “genellikle”. 

 

unit 9:  doldurmak – this is the normal word for “to fill” in most contexts, but in gas stations, many people use “ful yapmak” (from the English “full”).

 

unit 11 – sefaret – this Arabic word has now been replaced almost entirely by “elçilik” or “büyükelçilik”. 

 

unit 13 – kafi – often replaced by the verb “yetmek” (“to suffice’) and various forms such as “yeter” or “yeterli”.  “Kafi” is still a bit more polite in certain contexts, though, such as when someone is serving you food, in which context “yeter” is sort of brusque.

 

unit 14 – isim – younger Turks tend to use “ad” for “name” more than “isim”, although I would say they’re still interchangeable.

 

unit 15 – müsaade – a bit old-fashioned, but still considered more elegant in situations of courtesy than its modern Turkish equivalent, “izin”.  “İzninizle” can replace “müsaadenizle”.  “Hariciyeci” has entirely disappeared, I think, and been replaced by “diplomat”.

 

unit 16 – seyahat -- still in use, but “yolculuk” is probably more common these days.

 

unit 17 – takdim etmek – old-fashioned, but still in use.  “Sunmak” is more common in most contexts these days for “present” or “offer”.  “Evvela” is less common nowadays than “önce” (“beforehand”) or “ilk önce” (“first of all”).

 

unit 18 – müşerref olmak – has mostly disappeared, but impresses the hell out of people if you use it.  Normally, in being introduced to people of your own age/status, “memnun oldum” works fine, or sometimes just a simple “merhaba” if the situation is informal.  But if you meet the president or someone of stature, “müşerref oldum” goes over very well.  But it’s really only appropriate, I think, in case where it makes sense to say you’re HONORED to meet someone.  “Beyefendi” has almost dropped out of use except when you’re trying to be obsequious (or sarcastic), sort of like “sir” in the non-southern/non-military US.  The shorter “efendim” is still used widely however in polite conversations.

 

unit 19 – derhal – still used, but less common these days than “hemen”

 

unit 20 – kıymetli – much less common than “değerli”

 

unit 22 – tehirli – not used; replaced by adjective “gecikmeli” or verb “gecikmek” (“to be late’), or in cases of planes and the like, “rötarlı”.  “Yazıhane” strikes me as old-fashioned as well; I would use “ofis”.

 

unit 25 – mani olmak – used much less these days than “engellemek”

 

unit 26 – iade etmek – still understood, but largely replaced these days by “geri vermek” (“to give back”), “geri götürmek” (“to take back [to a place or person]”), etc.

 

unit 27 – zannetmek – still understood, but used much less frequently than its counterpart, “sanmak”.  Likewise, “defa” has largely given way to “kere” or “kez”.  “Evlad” is old-fashioned, and is really only used by older people in addressing younger people, as in the dialogue.  Don’t use it as the standard word for “child”.

 

I’m happy to defer to any native Turkish speakers who might care to chime in, but from my quick look through the dialogues (and ignoring any vocabulary items that might have been introduced elsewhere within the various chapters), it seems to me that there’s roughly one word per unit that’s a bit outmoded, even though almost all of those I’ve cited should be understood by, and acceptable to, almost any educated adult Turk.  As you can see, in most cases it’s a matter of replacing older, Arabic- or Persian-origin words by their modern Turkish equivalents, and in most cases, both words co-exist in different registers and among people of different age-groups.  The older words are often seen as more elegant by older people, and as “old-fogey-ish” by younger people, but I think that anyone with a serious interest in Turkish should still at least be familiar passively with all the words I listed, since they are still in use to a degree.

 

I’m struck in reviewing the first volume of the course with how much of the dialogue materials deal with polite formulas and pleasantries; these sorts of things are essential for diplomats, so it’s easy to see why they were included.  I suspect, without having checked yet, that more of the vocabulary in volume two, which gets more substantive, will seem old-fashioned or obsolete.  Still, I think that the FSI materials offer a great deal of very useful Turkish for people who work through them. 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: magister
Date Posted: 10 May 2007 at 10:53am

This is precisely what I was looking for, Daristani.  I really appreciate you taking the time to write out a detailed response.

Yardımınız için teşekkür ederim!
 


Posted By: bickern
Date Posted: 03 June 2007 at 5:10pm

I believe "bir şey değil" meaning "it is nothing" is used as the modern "estağfurullah" in unit 5


In unit 3 "allaha ısmarladık" / "allasmarladık" is very old fashioned

Hoşçakal (when you are leaving)  is also a bit old fashioned

Both the above has the reply "güle güle" (said by person staying)      

"Görüşürüz" is used more by the younger Turk, meaning "see you",  "sonra görüşürüz" = "see you later" and "yarın görüşürüz" = see you tomorrow  etc

This does not usually have the reply "güle güle" they usually repeat what you said.

Congratulations on finishing. I have only got as far as unit 5 at the moment and really enjoying.



Posted By: bickern
Date Posted: 03 June 2007 at 5:51pm
2 good urls are

http://www.turkishclass.com

This is a FREE TURKISH LANGUAGE CLASS

http://www.turkishdictionary.net
Well it is a dictionary online.

I find them both to be a good resource when learning Turkish.




Posted By: aku04
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 3:06am
Hello, I'm a native speaker and would like to add a few comments Smile
 
estağfurullah - I find that this is actually used quite often, still, albeit sometimes somewhat sarcastically. I don't think the younger generation would find it old-fashioned, but they might use it in a slightly more amused manner, if you know what I mean. By the way, I suppose I could be considered "younger generation", being 26 years old.
 
seyahat - I actually think this is more common than "yolculuk".
 
kıymetli  - I don't think this is less common than değerli. I'd say they are equally used.
 
tehirli  - is a word I have never even heard of :)
 
zannetmek - I usually prefer this over sanmak - I often say "zannedersem". I'm not sure if I could generalize to the whole population, but I don't think anyone would find you quaint if you used it.
 
Hoşçakal  - is definitely not old-fashioned.
Allahaısmarladık - also not really old-fashioned, but less used, I'd agree. It's not pronouced exactly as it's written, usually people swallow a couple of the sounds and say "allasmalldık" or something to that effect. The response is "güle güle" and to this day, I still confuse whether it is supposed to be said by the person staying or taking leave. Therefore, I usually resort to "Hoscakal", or "gorusuruz".
 
Hope this is helpful!
 
 
 


Posted By: aku04
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 3:08am
Also, to clarify the situation about "estağfurullah", it does not exactly convey the meaning that "bir şey değil" does. estağfurullah acts as a kind of tension breaker. For instance, a person can tell you that they are very bad at doing such and such, and you can respond "estağfurullah", sort of meaning - it's not a big deal, it's not a problem, not at all. Or when someone calls you and says "I'm sorry to have bothered you", you can use it to mean that they didn't.  


Posted By: bickern
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 6:02pm
Thanks aku04 nice to hear from a native speaker.
 
mmm thats the thing with languages, when to use a statement.

I live in Koycegiz in the west of Turkey and am being told that here Allahaısmaladık is rarely used,  it could be the religious aspect that may be the reason here, so could be different in the east????? Don't know really. You don't mention where you are from.

http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/streetturkish.htm - http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/streetturkish.htm
 
"Estağfurullah - "Please don't mention it.." - showing modesty"
 
is the only one I knew  so the other context is new to me, but if it is used sarcastically i think I will try and avoid it. Nice to know other meanings though so thanks for that.
 
Does "Bir şey değil" mean other than "it's nothing", "Don't mention it" or "You're Welcome"? if that's the correct interpretation.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: bickern
Date Posted: 06 June 2007 at 6:36pm
http://languagelab.bh.indiana.edu/turkish_t100_t150.html - http://languagelab.bh.indiana.edu/turkish_t100_t150.html  
 
Turkish 1
A Communicative Approach
by Suzan Özel



Posted By: aku04
Date Posted: 07 June 2007 at 1:59am

Bickern, I'm from Ankara. There are some regional differences in words used - natives of Izmir, for example, would use the word "gevrek" for what we (and I think most of Turkey) call "simit". The younger generation of Istanbul have slang and euphemisms that Ankara people might not be familiar with etc. As for Allahaismarladik, you are right, it is less common - but not completely redundant.

The sarcastic use of "estagfurullah" became popular after there was a rumor regarding its "authentic" meaning: it was rumored that it really means "Yes you are!". But you don't have to fear, we still use it in a non-sarcastic way. I think it's especially used when someone says "Sorry if I'm bothering" (something like "rahatsız ediyorum"). It is very appropriate to say "estağfurullah" in response. Also, regarding the literal meaning, I suppose we use some of these Arabic/Farsi-origin words without really ever learning the literal meaning - as with any native language, you start imitating the adults when it's used in a certain context.

I can't think of any other meaning `Bir şey değil` might convey other than the ones you've mentioned...  

Glad if I'm any help. Please feel free to ask anything :)


Posted By: daristani
Date Posted: 10 June 2007 at 1:18pm
As a further on-line resource for Turkish, the URL below contains a number of short video and audio clips in Turkish, arranged by the subject matter of the dialogue in question, as well as Turkish transcripts and English translations.


http://langmedia.fivecolleges.edu/collection/lm_turkey/tuIndex.html - http://langmedia.fivecolleges.edu/collection/lm_turkey/tuIndex.html


Posted By: Kubelek
Date Posted: 10 June 2007 at 6:50pm
I imagine this link won't be of much use for somebody who has finished the FSI course, but you may still take a look.

"Welcome to Turkish Tutor, an instructional program designed to help you understand the Turkish language as people actually speak it in Turkey.

Turkish Tutor consists of interactive lessons in which you watch short video clips from a popular http://www.isop.ucla.edu/turkishtutor/pages/home/turkish-tv.html - Turkish TV show and listen to clear audio clips of dialogue and vocabulary."

http://www.isop.ucla.edu/turkishtutor/pages/home/blackborder-fs.html - http://www.isop.ucla.edu/turkishtutor/pages/home/blackborder-fs.html


Posted By: talib
Date Posted: 28 June 2007 at 2:19pm
In the arabic language the literal meaning of astaghfirullah means 'I seek Allah's forgiveness'.  Like in the Qur'an when Allah says, "Wastaghfirullah.  Innallaha Ghafur-Raheem."  'And seek Allah's forgiveness!  Verily Allah is the Forgiving and the Compassionate.'   
 
I can see how it would make sense with the Arabic meaning if person x were to say 'Sorry if I am bothering you.'  Person y might reply by saying astaghfirullah because the implication would be that person y is seeking forgiveness from God for even the possibility of considering person x to be bothersome. 


Posted By: daristani
Date Posted: 28 June 2007 at 2:39pm
Talib, that's exactly right, which is why the phrase is used in Turkish both to reply to (or turn away) compliments and to express disagreement with any negative comments that the other person might make about himself.  This is why is really isn't replaced in most contexts by "bir şey değil".


Posted By: bickern
Date Posted: 29 June 2007 at 4:25am

looking at

http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/istighfar.html - http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/istighfar.html it does have the explanation as you say for astaghfirullah and the likeness of "astaghfirullah" to "estağfurullah" is very similar so I wouldnt disagree about the origin of the word but
 
http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/streetturkish.htm - http://www.turkishlanguage.co.uk/streetturkish.htm  says
 
ESTAĞFURULLAH - If someone compliments you on your ability to converse in Turkish - then your reply is - Estağfurullah - "Please don't mention it.." which implies a modicum of modesty.
 
So in the day to day usage of today I am not sure which is correct but asking people here I am being told the streetturkish is correct.
 
http://www.turkishdictionary.net/?word=ediyor&submit=Search - http://www.turkishdictionary.net/?word=ediyor&submit=Search  when looking up
 
cut & Paste
 
estağfurullah

1. Not at all./Don´t mention it (said in reply to an expression of thanks).
2. Please don´t say such a thing (said when someone either criticizes himself or praises you).
 
so i'm still not sure so I don't think I will use Estağfurullah



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